Brooke Bullock (00:03)
Hello and welcome to the Interview Insider, the podcast that offers space to dig a little deeper into healthcare recruitment and helps you to perform when the pressure is on. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians on the land on which this podcast is recorded, and pay my respect to elders past, present, and emerging. I'm your host, Brooke Bullock, an interview coach, communication nerd, and lover of a recruitment analogy.
Brooke Bullock (00:29)
And for the last decade, I've been so fortunate to work with doctors, nurses, and allied health professionals to help them succeed in high-stakes interviews. Each episode, I'll speak with experts to unpack the real factors behind interview success. So if you're preparing for your next big opportunity and want to perform at your best, you are in the right place.
Brooke Bullock (00:52)
today I'm joined by Professor Ian Coombs, who is one of Australia's most respected leaders in hospital pharmacy and medication safety. Ian served for many years as the director of pharmacy at the Royal Brisbane and Women's Hospital and is also a professor with the University of Queensland's School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences. Across Ian's career, he has played a major role in advancing clinical pharmacy practice in Australia.
Brooke Bullock (01:17)
and has contributed to national initiatives that have improved medication safety, improved workforce development and the quality use of medicines across hospitals. In today's conversations, we'll be drawing on Ian's extensive experience in leadership, recruitment and healthcare to explore insights that are highly relevant to healthcare professionals navigating competitive interviews and career progression in healthcare. So welcome Ian to the Interview Insider.
Ian Coombes (01:45)
Thanks, Brooke. Thanks very much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Brooke Bullock (01:49)
what we're going to talk about today is really focus on what can make an applicant stand out through the written application. Because I think a lot of people focus on the interview itself, but actually it's the earlier stage of recruitment through submitting a CV and often a cover letter or some form of written application that can really make candidates.
Brooke Bullock (02:07)
be ahead of the eight ball before they even hit the interview. I know you as much as I do, Ian, love a good story. So I wondered across probably two to three decades of recruitment. Is there someone that you remember really standing out through a written application?
Ian Coombes (02:23)
Brooke, there are a number of examples, but I think as a director of a department, you have a very good idea, particularly for more senior positions, of the kind of person you want who comes with the right level of experience and track record and impact. And I think, certainly more recently, one of the more recent senior jobs that I did recruit to, it was competitive, there was a lot of high-level applicants.
Ian Coombes (02:49)
But it was actually somebody who in one literally boxed statement, probably less than 50 words, to me just nailed it. In a humble and beautifully descriptive manner described how they'd been an inaugural pharmacist in a role which really no pharmacist had been in before. And they had addressed, this is from Medicine Safety Roll, they'd addressed a major issue with an area of healthcare teams which probably had gone unharnessed for some time, but they wrote it.
Ian Coombes (03:19)
as how they beautifully engaged, collaborated, identified the problem, had actually worked with the team to develop a solution and then implemented But they sort of said it in this beautifully humble way, which just actually wanted me to get them in the room. I wanted to get that person in the room, even though they probably, the people I knew when I looked at the names were not the people. Healthcare is small, right? And when you work for 40 years, you know a lot of people. And there were people that I thought, they'll be one, two, and three. But this person...
Ian Coombes (03:46)
with all due respect, might have been four, five or six. But they actually nailed in that. And then when we actually did get them in the room, they could really unpack it and they ticked so many of the boxes for me, because I always have a sort of mental grid of what I'm looking for. So that's a recent one. And I think it was really exciting, very difficult to have the conversation with one, two and three and four didn't get the job because did
Ian Coombes (04:09)
have a lot of other credibility, but this person just could do it. And it's about impact.
Ian Coombes (04:15)
It's not about having every, you're all gonna go through hoops and do your training and get some qualifications,
Brooke Bullock (04:20)
No.
Ian Coombes (04:21)
et cetera. But you want that person who you think can then translate what they've done in the past into where you want them to go and how you want them to do it.
Brooke Bullock (04:30)
And I think the value of sharing something that's quite neat, tight, humble, shows impact
Brooke Bullock (04:37)
it leaves you having read that application probably pretty quickly to be fair, but it has you wanting to ask
Ian Coombes (04:43)
I hardly ever go past first page. For a real application,
Brooke Bullock (04:45)
There you go.
Ian Coombes (04:47)
you know, if they're registered, they're qualified, they've got, you know, their basic training stuff, then I think that's, you know, that first page will make a difference hugely. You know, the
Brooke Bullock (04:56)
Yeah.
Ian Coombes (04:57)
negative ones. I mean, probably the, you know, some of the worst ones were where literally we've had people who were, you know, somebody I do remember being a kebab seller had applied for a basic grade pharmacy role.
Ian Coombes (05:09)
with the intention that they wanted to go and become a pharmacist. The ones you look at who have got size 10 font and about half a centimeter border, even if they've got two PhDs and MPhil and masters and MBA and they've worked for 50 years, they're going straight in the bin. Or, of course,
Brooke Bullock (05:25)
And no one's reading that, you know, no one's
Brooke Bullock (05:27)
no one has time to read that and probably needs their glasses to do so or to zoom in.
Brooke Bullock (05:32)
suggest that looks like practically is a minimum of moderate borders and a minimum font of eleven point five for those people who are like, oh, what font size can I do? I like eleven point five. And we're really just we're just nudging twelve there because twelve is a standard
Ian Coombes (05:46)
We'll back.
Brooke Bullock (05:46)
font size. So sure, eleven point five. Full stop. Yeah.
Ian Coombes (05:50)
I
Ian Coombes (05:50)
think it's attributed to Oscar Wilde, Churchill or Pascal, but the classic point about if I had more time, I'd have written you a shorter story. It really is worth getting some time and input into it. I know I've applied for things at the last minute and probably could have done a much better job. So although I'm saying it's a gateway and it's a bit of a tick process to get you through that hoop to get to the interview, you've still got to make the effort into it because it's
Ian Coombes (06:17)
It is a bit of a, there's a visual gut feel and it's that scanning those first few lines. It needs the person who's triaging to want more, particularly in really competitive roles, be them in medicine, nursing, pharmacy or other allied health. There is something, you've got to get people on the hook. There's got to be some bait, but it's also got to be in the context of what you want them to do. A bit like Bridget Jones when she's sort of applying for childcare and people ask her about her attitude about children, you don't want to say yes.
Ian Coombes (06:43)
right? So because those kind of things might put people off. And people say to me, oh, I really want to come to your hospital because I really like pediatrics. We only have a special care baby unit and not many
Ian Coombes (06:54)
have end-to-end health care. They cut and pasted the application from the last 20.
Brooke Bullock (06:58)
And the application, I think a panel can see through that straight away. Has this person actually written this application to me? I mean, to start with, is it addressed to the right person? The amount of times that
Ian Coombes (07:07)
Correct.
Brooke Bullock (07:07)
I've received a DR, Dr. Coombs, and I think, this
Ian Coombes (07:08)
Yeah.
Brooke Bullock (07:10)
person didn't mean to apply where I work, they meant to apply with Ian Coombs at the Royal Brisbane.
Ian Coombes (07:15)
names,
Ian Coombes (07:15)
wrong jobs. Yeah,
Ian Coombes (07:17)
happened.
Brooke Bullock (07:18)
you've captured well the importance of the power of sharing a specific story, even through the written application process. I do a lot of CV and written application reviews as part of my business, and I often see people being quite generic. And I describe it as almost you're talking about the top of the swimming pool, this articulate waffle of I'm a great leader and leadership is this, this and this and this.
Brooke Bullock (07:39)
but the power of saying a specific example of my leadership is, and then moving into that example, similar to what this candidate did that is so memorable for you, you can then share an example in four to six sentences.
Ian Coombes (07:51)
And I think actually beginning your, see, either on the top of your resume and or your selection report with that short story, and if it's done well, it will actually answer all the other boxes. And I think that there's the feeling that you have to just go through the process of saying, I was part of, But it's actually got to be I together with usually a lot of other colleagues, other disciplines.
Ian Coombes (08:16)
and other people together because yes, you had a key role in leading that, or involved with developing it or involved with evaluating it, or you were one of the people out in a rural allocation and you had to wear lots of hats at the same time. You know, to me, that is a real, that's another great thing to look at because the people who come from just the best top training place sometimes have such nuanced detailed skills. You actually really want people and going back to good examples, you know,
Ian Coombes (08:44)
thinking back of somebody who's actually really succeeded, albeit off in another profession now, but they came from a rural site where they just beautifully described how they were wearing six hats all at the same time. They were so unconsciously competent. They could literally walk into a senior pharmacist and then rapidly became the team leader and then became the team leader in a new innovative area that we worked in. because they just, they almost were so beautifully describing what it was we needed.
Ian Coombes (09:12)
to apply to a larger team because they've done all these things in their own small area where they had to be multitasking. So I think that people do think that if you come from an area or from a rural side or you've not necessarily been at the best training hospital, you actually got to be able to show all the other gold that you're bringing that's in your sack.
Brooke Bullock (09:31)
And also making connection for the panel to what that means for their site. So I've had this experience at this regional site, here was the impact, but because I'm applying for this job at the Royal Brisbane, this is the skills and experiences that I would bring to this ex other role that I'm applying for. So often it's, I always think it's the candidate's job to make those connections for the panel of what it actually means for them.
Brooke Bullock (09:53)
And I often call that the so what, like great story. So what does that actually mean for us? Yeah. So I want.
Ian Coombes (09:57)
Absolutely. Yeah. Because why is it?
Ian Coombes (10:00)
Why are we recruiting people? It's because we want the right people with the right skills at the right time, you know, who, yes, we can give some extra training to, or they're going to increase their knowledge. And they might, they might have been a great palliative care pharmacist, but they actually want to go into renal medicine. you know, there's actually a number of transferable skills. And I think that's what's been so fantastic, as we've developed more of a structured training program in a lot of healthcare areas,
Ian Coombes (10:23)
where there are so many transferable skills and the clinical component is one area. But if you're going for a leadership role or a management type role leading teams of people, the actual clinical nuance is not so as important as all those other. Being able to develop your workforce, do evaluation and feedback, have the difficult conversations, examples of how you do that, dealing with errors, dealing with adverse events, leading incident analysis.
Ian Coombes (10:49)
And most importantly, leading change. Everybody says, yeah, we all want to change. But when you ask people, do you actually want to be changed? No. If you've got examples of how you've shifted the culture of the way we do things around here, that is so important and so powerful.
Brooke Bullock (11:04)
Yeah, so true. I want to touch on that. So one of the things I think about is what are the best examples to share in the written application or interview? And I just want to capture what you've said there, which is there is multiple key domains that a doctor or pharmacist or nurse or allied health care professional needs to be good at. So we can think of them as like clinical and education and research. We could also Google the WHO.
Brooke Bullock (11:30)
eight-star pharmacist and they're probably things like collaborator, advocate, clinical, education, research. But if we're applying this to another profession such as a doctor, it might be that we look at the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons and their core competencies, which again are clinical, advocate, research, quality improvement. So I think that we need to think about what our best cards are in our pocket across all of those domains.
Brooke Bullock (11:57)
And often my advice is don't just always pick the clinical example
Ian Coombes (12:00)
And I think, Brooke, you know that when I started in the hospital department many years ago, there were four or five absolutely, you know, pretty top of the game, superb individual practitioners. The problem was they were individual practitioners to the point where when one of them went on long leave after I'd been there a few months,
Ian Coombes (12:18)
We had very thin on the ground, we had a really low level of workforce, but we needed to maintain basic service. They literally put a sign up on the door saying, on leave for a month, call this phone number. And when I got back and I said, the bit about making sure that some of the basic grades could cover some of the core things to service, just the basic needs for this one ward unit area, pretty specialised area, but least some of the core basic things, they said, I was just too busy doing my super amazing specialised things. Nothing about training, nothing about sustainability, nothing about.
Ian Coombes (12:47)
core components of the role, nothing about their actual responsibility as a leader and a manager.
Brooke Bullock (12:52)
there's all these core roles that need to be high priority as well as things in non-clinical domains, which sounds like your preference as well as mine, those examples are the right thing to share and touch on in a written application. The interview then offers the opportunity to go deeper, to expand on that and back to your story of the earlier applicant, the written application gets that person in the room thing that you touched.
Ian Coombes (13:14)
But I have the grid.
Ian Coombes (13:15)
So I do the grid, right? So if it's anything above a level four, HB4 job, which is like, you know, a registrar advanced training kind of position in medicine or a level five, six nurse, I know I want clinical practice and I want to have experience, but I want to
Brooke Bullock (13:28)
Mm.
Ian Coombes (13:28)
have examples of leadership and how they've done education training, most critically evaluation and feedback, both receiving it, but also providing it and how they understand evaluation audit. They don't have to have a PhD.
Ian Coombes (13:41)
Unfortunately, because there's a lot of people at our department who have PhDs and have done PhDs, like yourself, that we do, you know, I'll have people who say, I really want to come and be an intern because I want to be able to do a PhD. Well, probably that's not actually the right time for your career. And maybe you should have just gone off and done a PhD straight after undergrad, because there's a lot of other core things to learn, yeah, before you just running off doing a PhD. And I think people will look at the department, Google what they do, see, gosh, there's Michael Barras and Jason Roberts and Karen Whitfield, all these people have been there.
Ian Coombes (14:10)
and Andy Hale, we just, you don't want to be that person, but some people will write in their application this hunger and desire
Brooke Bullock (14:13)
Good.
Ian Coombes (14:16)
to get there, and it's a little stepwise approach, but we've got to show that
Brooke Bullock (14:19)
and
Ian Coombes (14:19)
they've got the building blocks to get there.
Brooke Bullock (14:21)
we want the, you know, jack of all trades before the master of none or the master of one. Yeah. So.
Ian Coombes (14:26)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because
Ian Coombes (14:30)
you do go off to be in a subspecialty area, you know, in medicine, for example, that's why you do your basic training. That's why you do your general med and your surgery and your emergency. And the same with pharmacy. You know, it does worry me where people get a job and they go off and they work in cancer care. Immediately they register. That's all they're working.
Brooke Bullock (14:47)
Mm.
Ian Coombes (14:49)
I just you got to think, well, those patients don't just come with a tumour. They've actually got kidneys and hearts and liver and lungs and
Ian Coombes (14:55)
everything else that goes with it. And you've got to understand that whole medicine process and how you're procure medicine. Correct, correct.
Brooke Bullock (14:56)
And there's a team, there's a team around you that needs feedback, that needs leadership, that needs education.
Brooke Bullock (15:04)
I completely agree. I want to touch on a couple more things The first is you mentioned you might just read the first page. two questions. How long should this cover letter be? Secondly, if they do want to use two pages, how can they make you read page two?
Ian Coombes (15:17)
Either they've got the most compelling story on page one, but I would have to say, and I apologize to all those people who've applied to the different hospitals they've worked at, but I hardly ever turn to page two. And on the cover letter, so the CV is always gonna be more than page two, but even the top of the CV, I love that key summary, which is your impact statement of what Brooke Bullock has done and delivered as a component of a wider, bigger team.
Ian Coombes (15:45)
And I've said before, but if all I can see is I, I, I, and not we and us and them and my contribution and how I fitted in and what I adapted and how I did, they're never gonna work in a highly complex system. Because I can tell you having investigated hundreds of incidents that go wrong, the underlying compelling reason, poor communication, lack of perception and awareness of what other roles and other people should be doing, how they should do it.
Ian Coombes (16:12)
and the arrogance of people who assume that everybody else gets it right. Because if there is a whiff or a smell that this person is all about them, they're not getting past page one.
Brooke Bullock (16:23)
Yeah. So claiming what you have done, but making sure you give credit to the team around you. And it shows you're a great team player by you even saying there was this excellent nurse. So, you know, we were able to harness the skills of the research nurse or the blah, blah, blah nurse in this case straight away. That tells me so many other layers of the onion about this person. were, you know, they're a great team player. They respect the multidisciplinary team. They're going to stay with inside their scope. Yeah. Really good.
Ian Coombes (16:46)
Well, they claim
Ian Coombes (16:47)
they did it all. Nothing is new. Everything has been done before in different ways at different times. What we are doing is nuancing and refining and adapting. And to give credit
Brooke Bullock (16:57)
Mm-hmm.
Ian Coombes (16:57)
to that, or to suddenly say, yes, it was so special, nobody else could possibly have done this. You probably have somebody on the selection panel who knows exactly where it came from or exactly who did it the first time. The people who sort of claim to be doing this new thing because it was never invented by anybody else but them.
Ian Coombes (17:14)
Yeah, those are, you've got to be really careful if you start stating claim on your application. So yes, we want to know you've had impact, but we don't want people who believe they are just the God's gift to everything.
Brooke Bullock (17:24)
Yeah, yeah. The other thing I would mention with a cover letter is making sure you just have clear sign posting. So even if you are giving them one full
Ian Coombes (17:30)
Yeah.
Brooke Bullock (17:31)
page, but definitely if you're giving them two full pages, do not give them three. It's just too much. But even in one or two pages, really.
Ian Coombes (17:37)
Correct. And if it says research,
Ian Coombes (17:39)
you can say, look at my Orchid ID, look at page blah, blah, the CV. Don't try and then repeat your top 10 papers, or all your multiple grants you've applied for, or all the roles you had from like year five onwards. It's got to be contextual. And you've got to, the other thing that's really, really useful wherever possible, ask to sit on a selection panel.
Ian Coombes (18:01)
So I mean, I'm very lucky that I've been on selection panels for executive directors of hospitals and executive directors of different service lines when I've been acting in those roles. But also we would invariably, particularly for level fours or senior level threes, we'd invite them to be on the panel.
Ian Coombes (18:14)
because they're also closer to the ground. So they're also probably more honest. It's a bit like having your med safety team full of consultants and chief pharmacists. That's ridiculous. Half the man's seen a patient for 30 years. So you actually want to have those junior people. So if you get a chance to be on a interview panel or a selection process, put your hand up for it because you'll
Brooke Bullock (18:34)
Mm.
Ian Coombes (18:34)
know how the mechanism works. You'll be at the table when they're shortlisting and you'll be at the table after people walk out the room and you'll know what people are going to say.
Ian Coombes (18:42)
So I mean, that's
Brooke Bullock (18:43)
Alright.
Ian Coombes (18:43)
a really useful thing to think about.
Brooke Bullock (18:45)
I've had so many great experiences with the HP4, brilliant HP4s that I've worked with running, you know, running a whole interview recruitment from way to go, being the panel chair. Sure, they can ask questions and have some advice, but gee, they do a good job of it and learn so much from it. So, you know, for those people
Ian Coombes (18:59)
Absolutely.
Brooke Bullock (19:00)
listening, put it in your PDP, ask your supervisor, you know, email them, put it in writing. I'd really like to be involved in recruitment because most people I work with, I would say 90.
Brooke Bullock (19:10)
5 % plus of people that I work with across all specialties, nursing and allied health have never been on an interview panel. cover letter? Yeah.
Ian Coombes (19:18)
with
Ian Coombes (19:18)
all due respect, we're doing all these podcasts and you do an awful lot of work to help people to sort of try and preempt what's gonna happen when you're in the room. Get in the room. Just get in there and do it, you know? And it also,
Brooke Bullock (19:27)
Yeah.
Ian Coombes (19:30)
yes, you might have to do a of extra discretionary time, heaven forbid, read a few applications outside of work and not get paid for it. But what it's gonna give back to you, it also shows that, as always, what you're looking for in a written application,
Ian Coombes (19:41)
Because to be fair, going back, I know we're talking about lot of senior jobs, but at juniors, I love seeing people who've done other things other than go blasting through school and university, getting every top mark for everything. Maybe I'm the person who did year 13 and people who scrabbled through with a few resits at university. But at the end of the day, you actually want the human. You want the human who is gonna work in a complex team which has got the highest stakes, which are patients' lives at risk. And if they can't demonstrate that it's all about them,
Ian Coombes (20:11)
contributing and working to improve patient care, they shouldn't be in healthcare in the first place. They could work in a morgue,
Brooke Bullock (20:16)
Yeah.
Ian Coombes (20:17)
but even then, you know, that's difficult because somebody has to
Brooke Bullock (20:19)
Yeah.
Ian Coombes (20:20)
respect those patients.
Brooke Bullock (20:22)
And I'm so grateful for your advice. It's so helpful for the people listening. And I want to summarize five key things, which I've been writing on a sticky note because we talk quickly at each other. So I do not want anyone
Ian Coombes (20:30)
Right?
Brooke Bullock (20:32)
to miss this. One is, sharing stories with impact in your written application. I also think the story with impact comes into the...
Brooke Bullock (20:41)
professional statement or career summary that I also agree should be at the top of somebody's CV. So that's two points. The next is the I versus we, making sure that your focus is on you as a member of the broader team as there are no individuals in healthcare, fortunately. So really leaning into that. One to two page maximum cover letter with some signposting. Font size, minimum size 11.5.
Brooke Bullock (21:07)
The last two things, one is the awkward number that Ian mentioned and if somebody, anyone hasn't heard of that, my belief is anyone with at least three to four publications or more should register for an ORCID or awkward number. What that is, it's a repository which is one place that somebody can go and look at all of your research. I certainly felt that that was important for me actually when mid-PhD with you as my supervisor, I went from Brook Myers to Brooke Bullock. You know, we had conversations around, should I change my name?
Brooke Bullock (21:35)
And I did, but I had that ORC ID number. So you can see when you look at mine, it's got Myers Myers Myers, and then, know, whatever year that was, 2017,
Ian Coombes (21:42)
Yeah.
Brooke Bullock (21:43)
Bullock Bullock Bullock. So that's a really good point. And anyone on the panel who is has done research is even impressed by the fact that you have an ORC ID number. And lastly, the final advice, is get yourself on a panel.
Ian Coombes (21:58)
Thank you, Brooke. You've actually you're a very good active listener. Well done. And that's another good attribute
Brooke Bullock (22:02)
Hahaha.
Ian Coombes (22:03)
we look for. but two little things. We actually have had
Brooke Bullock (22:05)
Changes. Yeah.
Ian Coombes (22:06)
people on a wider selection panel who aren't always even on the interview, but at least they get to understand the process and be part of that.
Ian Coombes (22:13)
and don't get any HR manager right and tell me I've broken every rule in the book, but I think you can do that. And
Brooke Bullock (22:18)
Yeah.
Ian Coombes (22:19)
the other thing about linking to the Orchid ID, which as you know, something I was quite passionate about, is the actual idea of developing a professional portfolio. So you can, and nowadays because a lot of them are digital, you can signpost those. Professional bodies and society and colleges will actually help people develop those. So you don't have to put all those in, but it's pretty impressive when people do either, a flash stick's hard to look at in an interview panel.
Ian Coombes (22:41)
But if they actually reference or signpost to your actual portfolio, that's where you've got some of the breadth and depth that you're trying to cram into two pages, too much detail. If you've got a portfolio which covers off on all the core sort of competency domains for your own healthcare profession, which are going to be clinical practice and communication and teamwork and leadership, et cetera, then I think that's something that people could link to. And for more senior jobs, that's actually quite a...
Ian Coombes (23:06)
important thing and as you know, we've gone through a process of professional recognition of those portfolios, which is so much more than just saying, I think I'm a specialist of and putting a sign up and then everybody else goes huzzah, but they've got no idea whether you've actually can do it and what
Brooke Bullock (23:19)
brilliant. So great advice for the written application So thank you Ian so much for your time.
Ian Coombes (23:24)
Yeah.
Brooke Bullock (23:24)
I'm sure everyone's busily updating their written applications as we speak.
ending and disclaimer (23:30)
Thank you so much for joining me on the Interview Insider. Please remember that recruitment is a sensitive and subjective space. These conversations are intended to spark reflection, but keep in mind there is no one size fits all answer to recruitment. Importantly, the views expressed in this podcast are our own and don't represent any employer or affiliated organizations of either myself or my guests. If you've found this conversation has been helpful,
ending and disclaimer (24:00)
Please feel free to share it with a colleague or anyone preparing for their next big interview. And if you'd like more support, resources, or to work with me and my team directly, you can find everything on my website or connect with me on social media. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so that you don't miss what's coming up next. But until next time, good luck with your next challenge and keep showing up and showing them what you're made of.
